Posts by Juan Viejo2

149

Watchtower Observer site goes down

by Norm in

jw
friends

hey folks,.

an era in the ex-jw history is over.

kent steinhaug's site http://watchtower.observer.org is being shut down.. it was the first of it's kind, and to this day probably still the largest anti wt site on the net.

How often do you see the Witnesses out on the ministry?

by rory-ks in

i only ask because i hardly ever see them out on the ministry.

it is a very rare sighting to spot them actively engaged in the house to house ministry.

or out on the street work, in the marketplace, etc.. the other reason i ask is because they are constantly pictured as being on the preaching work.

When I was a JW kid in the 1950s and 60s we covered all the territory maps at least 4 times a year - even the more rurual ones. We sometimes hit the same territories every 60 days. We knew most of the houses by heart and who lived there - knew whether they were going to be nice or nasty - and who had dogs we had to watch out for.

I live in a fairly dense and generally upscale (but not rich) neighborhood. I have lived here almost 7 years and only seen them at my door on three occasions. I usually have a Memorial tract and maybe a summer convention tract dropped on my doorstep without a knock. My office and desk sit less than 10 feet from the front door, so I would hear anyone coming to the front door. My puppy goes crazy when someone comes to the door (UPS delivery, Girl Scouts, Halloween candy thieves, etc.), but if the JWs are coming to my door she isn't noticing them. I've considered driving over to the KH on Saturday morning and then following them to the territories and the around while they are in service. I'd take my movie camera to see where they actually go and what they actually do. My guess is that it would make for some interesting video.

Of course in my case, I'm sure my house is marked as being the home of an apostate. But surely not everyone that works this territory knows that. At some point in time I would expect someone to actually do more than drop a tract on my front porch and actually knock on the door.

Many of the recent JWs who have left and contacted me on one of my websites have admitted that over the past few years they spent very little time in any kind of "real" Witnessing work (knocking on doors, standing on downtown street corners). Most admitted that they would go out and do their "routes," stopping by their "go backs" and dropping off new magazines, but not spending any time in preaching. Others would go and spend part of a morning putting magazines in laundromats and doctor's offices. Some would make cold calls on the telephone, but only leave messages - not actually talk to anyone who answered. A few would Witness by going on the Internet and leaving comments on Youtube videos and Yahoo! Answers or Topix threads.

This may vary from one area to another depending on how enthusiastic the elders are in actually engaging in field service themselves. But I know that many spend their "hours" at the Kingdom Halls engaging in "planning and service meetings." In fact, the elders may be more reluctant to actually go door to door than some of the R & F. They know that it's all just a waste of time - but they can disappear into other work (shepherding calls, judicial meetings, etc.) and spend more time kicking JWs out of the cult than recruiting new members into it.

One former elder confessed to me that over the past three or four years he may have spent 20 hours in actual door-to-door preaching. These guys count meeting times (good for at least 4 hours a week), talk preparation at home (another "4" hours a week), and "shepherding calls" - time spent calling up the other JWs and asking them if they've reported all their hours, asking them if they are well, and asking them if they have any questions about recent meeting or magazine discussions. There is also, of course, time spent working on RBC projects - one of the favorite ways to put in hours and still feel good about the time spent.

BTW - one elder recently wrote me and mentioned that in their Kingdom Hall they spent a lot of hours trying to get members to come back to meetings. In his KH there were 122 members (including children over the age of 4) - but meeting attendance was only about 65-70 on Sundays. So they would spend and count most of their hours spent on the phone calling other JWs who had recently missed a meeting. In my day those kinds of hours were not considered "service hours" by elders. He told me that the elders would make note of who failed to show up for a meeting and then hand off to each elder a list of those who missed meetings. They would then count 30 minutes to an hour per shepherding phone call. They would also call regular attenders to encourage them to contribute more to the contribution boxes and ask them to put in checks rather than cash so that the elders could keep track of each family's real contributions. He said that they would use the excuse that "checks were safer than cash" and that "checks gave the giver proof for tax returns." The real reason was two-fold: Give the elders a reason to count time and shame the JWs into giving larger amounts than they would with cash. As he said, "Who would write a check for $2 a week?"

Bottom line: probably 80-85% of all hours counted are bogus.

JV

24

Jason Cobb's new podcast explaining Menlo Park scandal

by Rufus T. Firefly in

jw
friends

https://soundcloud.com/jtv-16/jtv-podcast-ep1.

this podcast is very interesting, especially the latter half.

in a nutshell, the scheme is this: after determining that a complete kingdom hall remodel will cost the congregation $100,000.00, the regional building committee arbitrarily inflates the estimate to $250,000.00, fleecing the congregation and misappropriating the additional funds for other purposes.

Juan Viejo2

All of this is old news rehashed for the third time.

Back in 2011 and 2012 I posted a whole series of articles, provided PDFs of all of the court documents, and published Jason's uncut testimony about what happened in Menlo Park.

Jason Cobb, his father Jon Sr., and others close to the case wouldn't give me the time of day. All of the "new" documentation that is coming out now is just revisions and reworks of what happened the first time around. While I supported the Menlo Park elders who found themselves in the Watchtower's crosshairs and were dealt with harshly and unfairly for trying to protect their congregation's interests - and I still think even now that they are on the right side of this argument - their constant desire to avoid any contact with "apostates" or other "worldly people" has weakened their support and credibility. Jason and Jon Cobb Sr. were dealt with in the most heinous of ways and have suffered dearly for taking the stand that they did, but they have treated those who have reached out to help them as if we were all rabid dogs. You only get bitten so many times before you say enough is enough.

The sad truth is that they had a majority of the members of their congregation behind them when this scandal began. Although I do not have proof that they have lost all local support among the Menlo Park Congregation, I could tell that attitudes among the flock were changing at the end of my involvement in the case. Anonymous callers would tell me, "We just want this to end. Our congregation just wants to concentrate on Jehovah's work and getting along. We know that the Watchtower has made up its mind and will do what they want. They just have too much money and too much power. Brothers Jason and Jon Sr. need to just give it up and either decide to leave the congregation and get on with their lives, or just allow us to do the same."

"John Steele" - the pseudonym for someone much closer to the case than he will admit - is likely the source of all the new documents and may in fact be the webmaster and writer for most of them. I really doubt that all these "Leaks" websites just popped up out of the blue only to then focus primarily on the Menlo Park case. Yeah, the Conti case gets a little notice from them, but really all of these "wiki-leaks" wannabe sites all have the same attitudes, writing styles and focus and the real intent is to promote the Menlo Park story.

It's really too bad that these elders - who again, in my opinion, were on the right side of the argument - did not foster the support they already had, not to mentiion all that was building up for them - but rather rejected all of our efforts to assist them and help them tell their story. The local press was very interested in the case early on, but found both sides totally uncooperative, so eventually we all decided to say F#%* it - if they're going to be assholes let 'em lose.

I spoke with several local reporters and writers for San Francisco and Oakland newspapers about the Menlo Park case. Via my contacts I let the plaintiffs know that I was trying to open up some media resources for them inlcuding TV. They never even responded to me and my contacts let me know early on that they would never allow me to interview them or research the case from their point of view. Not an email. Not a phone call. Nothing.

Go look at all the articles I wrote on Ex-JW.com about their case - and even my comments on many threads here on JWN on their behalf. Not one of the Cobbs has ever called me, written me, emailed me, or invited me to tea. Yeah, their spokesman "John Steele" has tossed me a few crumbs and I even spoke to him on the phone once (he called me but would not answer my calls to him), but none of them have ever had the balls to sit down and actually meet with me or any major media investigator to tell their story. Once when I was in the area (after my brief phone call with John Steele), I arranged a private hotel room in Santa Clara where we could meet privately and securely some distance from Menlo Park. No, they wanted me to come to a busy, hot, and crowded Starbucks within minutes of Menlo Park where we could barely converse over the traffic noise, would be sitting in the hot sun and pestered by fruit flies and crows.

I was there on time and ready. None of them showed up. I waited for two hours hoping they would show up eventually. No cell phone call - and they had my number. All I had no number for them because Steele called me from a throw away cell phone. After that, not a single email. No apology. No nothing.

And yet I still think they are or were on the right side of this issue.

Quoting Marlon Brando (revised), "They coulda been contenders..."

JV

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

Juan Viejo2

I appreciate that many of you are concerned about the status or effect of AAWA's Change.org petition. However, so far the facts would indicate that whatever the weaknesses of that program might be, AAWA's board is at this point quite happy with the results and expect to eventually reach our goal of 5000 signatures.

Reacting to your complaints in this thread about Change.org's misuse of email information, I have polled several of those who have signed the petition to see if they have been hit with spam. I've asked anyone with that type of experience to contact me and let me know what they've got. So far not a single complaint. Everyone's experience has been the same as mine - generally positive.

I signed the petition when it had about 500 signatures. Since then I have received just 2 emails directly from Change.org referring me to other active petitions for my consideration. In fact the second one only hit my email box this morning - and that was for a petition to restrict the importation of Chinese chicken into the United States. The reason (besides the obvious protection of our local farmers and processors) for the petition, is that inspection facilities in China are either non-existent or do not meet the standards required by the United States. Here is a sample of its contents:

"Last year, according to news reports, a Chinese poultry supplier provided Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants in China with chicken fattened by large quantities of illegal drugs. And in the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently warned pet owners not to feed their pets jerky treats from China. Since 2007, approximately 600 dogs and cats in the United States have mysteriously died, and 3,600 have been sickened from eating Chinese pet treats, including those containing chicken or duck.

"Yet despite these concerns, chicken can now be processed in China and sent back to this country for human consumption even though there will be no on-site USDA inspectors in Chinese processing facilities to ensure food safety. Furthermore, Chinese-processed chicken does not have to bear “Country Of Origin Labeling,” which means that consumers will not know if they are purchasing or eating chicken processed in China."

https://www.change.org/petitions/congress-keep-chinese-chicken-out-of-our-schools-and-supermarkets?utm_source=action_alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=46796&alert_id=WOpgbHuIiY_vlPlFEkurv

I think that kind of appeal is worth my signature - even though the USDA may do nothing at all ever. The petition, like so many before it, may fall into deaf hands. But it also acts as a warning (as AAWA's petition does) and may save a few lives. Nothing may ever be done by the USDA to save our health - there is too much money changing hands at high levels. Our only option may be to just stop eating at KFC.

So far not a a single bit of spam or any advertisements that can be connected in any way to AAWA's petition (now at 2625 signatures) has been reported.

Also, just to clear up one major misunderstanding expressed by other posters:

AAWA does not expect this petition to change the Watchtower Society in any way shape or form. All ex-JW websites, surveys, appeals, letters to headquarters, YouTube videos, court cases, bad press and the many books that have been written about JWs and the Borg have not moved them at all. Like the intransigent Pharoah of Moses' time, their hearts have just become harder and they refuse to let their people go. As we all know, the Governing Body just keeps getting more ridiculous and oppressive as time goes on. So we know that our petition will have no direct effect on the Watchtower.

Our goal is to draw some interest from secular news agencies, mass media, and goverment agencies, if not in the USA or Canada, perhaps in other countries. As mentioned before, our goal is to get 5000 signatures before formally addressing it to any govermental agencies or major news services. Feedback from third parties has already been quite encouraging and some interest has already been expressed by some unexpected, but very welcome sources.

Time will tell if anything comes of this effort - but we won't know if we don't try. Others have been very successful using Change.org.

If you do not support the petition - don't sign it.

If you think the petition is a waste of time - don't sign it.

If you are afraid that you will be bombarded with spam or directed advertising - don't sign it.

If you are not afraid - but support the goals of the petition, whether or not you support AAWA - then at least read it and consider signing it.

My purpose with this post is not to try to convert any of you to becoming AAWA supporters. I think we are pretty much outnumbered here by our critics. Some of you have some very good suggestions and critiques, but tend to get drowned out or overwhelmed by some with louder voices and more influence. My goal in writing this is just to clear up some of the misunderstanding about what our goals are and how we hope to achieve them.

We've looked at SNAP and other similar organizations that have been successful using online petitions. Many of them have had positive results using Change.org and other similar services and have recommended that we also give them a try. That's all that we are doing at the moment.

We're giving Change.org a test drive. If it gets us closer to our destination, then we may use it again. If not, we'll park it, toss the keys into the bushes and walk away. We won't know for sure unless we actually use it and see where it gets us.

Juan Viejo

16

SOOO - this is what they think passes for "piousneering " nowadays???

by hamsterbait in

on my way into work, i saw a "litterature waggon" strapped to a lamp post outside the railway station.. three (i kid you not) three "pious sneers" were standing, almost thirty feet away, gossiping laughing.. i watched for about five minutes, not one person looked at the stuff (it had "bible" on it so warned passersby cult.).

they never once went near the display to draw attention to it.

in fact, only an ex dubbie would have known they were connected with it.. by the end of the morning, they will have put in 3 x number of hours standing chatting and drinking coffee to keep warm.

Juan Viejo2

While it's still fresh in my mind...

Does anyone know where the JWs buy these literature stands? Do they get them from the WT or private vendors. I'd love to get one of these things and then go set up next to some JWs with a table or stand and then set mine up and load it with a bunch of handouts that expose Watchtower "truths" and history. Anyone in the Pacific Northwest want to join me in this - or at least hold a video camera?

JV

16

SOOO - this is what they think passes for "piousneering " nowadays???

by hamsterbait in

on my way into work, i saw a "litterature waggon" strapped to a lamp post outside the railway station.. three (i kid you not) three "pious sneers" were standing, almost thirty feet away, gossiping laughing.. i watched for about five minutes, not one person looked at the stuff (it had "bible" on it so warned passersby cult.).

they never once went near the display to draw attention to it.

in fact, only an ex dubbie would have known they were connected with it.. by the end of the morning, they will have put in 3 x number of hours standing chatting and drinking coffee to keep warm.

Juan Viejo2

Does anyone on JWN know if they are using these pioneer literature carts or tables on streets or public places in Portland, Oregon or Vancouver, Washington? I've been downtown in both cities in recent months but have not seen any like the ones shown online. If you know any place in the Pacific Northwest (USA) where this is happening please PM me. I'd love to get a video of this with actual interviews with them to see what they have to say while just sitting there watching people grab literature.

JV

56

They are really begging for money again..

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

sorry i don't know how to post the actual letter but here is the text of it.

lol.

christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses 2821 route 22, patterson, ny 12563-2237 phone: (845) 306-1100.

Juan Viejo2

We forget that prior to Rutherford changing the local Bible Student churches into "Kingdom Halls" and elders into "Company Servants" in the late 1930s -every congregation was completely autonomous and used local donations for their own needs. For the most part that situation remained through the 1960s. When elders became "overseers" and "boards of elders" were established, local control diminished greatly. Now Kingdom Halls and their managers are just like McDonalds restaurants. The layout is the same. The signage is the same. The materials are the same. Even the public talks are 100% scripted. The look and smell are all the same. Except now the elders are simply local managers for Watchtower HQ. They might as well put big TV screens in every Kingdom Hall and have "big brother" produce and pipe everything in directly from Patterson, NY via Internet links.

With the Watchtower's complete conversion to the Internet (it's coming folks!!!) all judicial meetings, major public addresses, and even Watchtower studies can be conducted right from WT HQ.

Watch as local control is eventually diminished to replacing toilet paper and locking the doors and everything else being delivered on wide screen TV installed behind a curtain on the stage. All local control and personalities will be eliminated.

I expect this to happen within the next ten years. I fully expect the Governing Body to become inspired by spirit and decide that they should be the ONLY VOICE representing Jehovah worldwide. And when that happens you can expect plenty of well produced commercials before and after those talks pushing for more money, more contributions to the worldwide work...

"mo money, mo money, mo money..."

JV

56

They are really begging for money again..

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

sorry i don't know how to post the actual letter but here is the text of it.

lol.

christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses 2821 route 22, patterson, ny 12563-2237 phone: (845) 306-1100.

Juan Viejo2

TTATTelder,

Keep us informed as to what is going on in your Hall. You might bring it up during meetings with elders from other KHs to see if any of them have experienced similar situations. The contact I was getting the information from was in the San Francisco Bay Area from one of the more affluent cities (he was not from Menlo Park). So maybe this technique on the part of the WT may be directed toward those KHs felt to be "wealthy." They may not waste their time using this technique on small KHs in Conway, Arkansas or Woodburn, Oregon.

If this happens in your KH in the future please let us know. Keep your ears open. My SF Bay contact seemed very credible and many other clues he gave me eventually panned out.

JV

56

They are really begging for money again..

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

sorry i don't know how to post the actual letter but here is the text of it.

lol.

christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses 2821 route 22, patterson, ny 12563-2237 phone: (845) 306-1100.

Juan Viejo2

TTATTelder wrote:

There is also something in place now that I'm not sure if many people know about.

They encourage congregations to keep any excess funds on deposit with the branch. They call it "Funds On Deposit". Our congregation has several thousand dollars on deposit with the branch. We only keep about 2-3k in our checking account.

The arrangement is to let them hold and use the money until if/when we need it in the future. So basically it is a no-interest loan.

That makes you wonder how many congregations have how many thousands "On Deposit" with the branches around the world?

That is correct. While this sounds like a beneficial plan for both the Kingdom Hall (safety of funds) and the Watchtower (more cash reserves available), the reality was brought to my attention a few months back when I was involved in researching the Menlo Park Kingdom Hall scandal.

In the past each Kingdom Hall would take in its incoming contributions and each month pay the utilities, pay for literature, pay for minor repairs, and cover any out-of-pocket expenses of the elders and others for supplies and minor items like flowers, stationery, Memorial wine and crackers, etc. A certain amount or percentage of what was left over would be sent to the Watchtower, as would payments on any moneys still due for construction or improvement loans on the Kingdom Hall. The remainder would be placed in a second bank account (often in a different bank) to be used as reserves.

With the new arrangement, most of the reserves would be forwarded to the WT and only a small amount <=> $1000 USD would be retained in the KH reserve funds.

My contact told me that something is not quite right with this arrangement. When his KH accounts elder contacted the WT and asked for $10,000 of their own money to pay for exterior paint and roof repairs required after a local RBC building inspection, the WT denied their request. Instead, they suggested that the local elders ask the congregation to increase their donations specifically for the repairs rather than draw down on savings deposited with the WT.

When he was having an off-the-cuff conversation with an elder from another congregation he was told that they had experienced the same thing. When they decided to increase the level of their local savings and reduce the amount of "excess" sent to the WT, they came under fire by the CO and DO. They actually had to go to a "come to Jesus" meeting about this and all got their butts chewed. The elders agreed that when it came to local bank accounts that they were "damned if they did and damned if they didn't when they sent it to the WT.

My contact told me that local elders who have been through this process know that any excess bank moneys deposited with the WT will likely never be seen again. The Watchtower will simply tell them to find other ways to gather up the funds they need and leave the money on deposit with the Watchtower.

I've also heard rumors that the Watchtower will have deposit and withdrawal rights on all local KH bank accounts. This may be in place now for some larger congregations. If that happens, all financial control of local fund will be assumed by New York HQ.

JV

739

250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

by nicolaou in

80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.

250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.

stop this #cult!

Juan Viejo2

I'm coming to this late, but want to share my own experiences with blood transfusion deaths of Jehovah's Witnesses. The time period was from 1951 to 1975 and in a relatively small geographical region of Los Angeles (Hollywood area only) and Riverside Counties of California.

I can't remember the names or exact years, but here are my personal connections to blood transfusion deaths and one near death:

When I was about 10 (1953) and in the Riverside (CA) Central KH, a young sister died from a hemorrhage. If I remember right she ignored what she thought was an excessive menstrual flow and became anemic. She was taken to Riverside Community Hospital, refused a blood transfusion and died within 48 hours. My family attended her funeral and the fact that she "faithfully" refused a transfusion was mentioned during the service.

When I was about 15 (1958) a young newly married couple had just been married and were returning home in a private airplane. It crashed and both were badly injured. The husband died at the scene and the young woman was rushed to the hospital with severe injuries. According to my parents (my father was a servant at the time) the woman had lost a lot of blood but could have survived her injuries - but refused to have a blood transfusion and died within hours. That too was mentioned at their funeral.

A young couple who were very close to my family had just had a baby. The baby was in her mother's lap when their car was involved in a front to rear collision. The baby was crushed up against the dashboard (this was before seat belts and child seats). All three of the passengers were rushed to the hospital. The father and mother had minor injuries and the baby, while seriously injured, could have survived. The parents refused a transfusion for the baby and it died within hours of the accident.

When I was 17, a JW mother in her mid-30s attending the Magnolia Center (Riverside, CA) congregation was diagnosed with a serious blood disease. Her doctor told her that they would have to completely transfuse her blood and continue to fight anemia for several months with additional transfusions. When she refused the doctor told her that she should go home and settle her affairs as she had less than two weeks to live. She died ten days later. I attended her funeral too (I'd dated her niece) and the story of her faithful decision was mentioned by the brother giving the memorial talk.

When I was 18, I was asked by a JW friend of mine if I could drive over the his house and drive his mother to the hospital. I remember their car very well (it was similar to the Plymouth in Steven King's "Christine"). She could not drive herself because she had just had surgery on her female organs and could not use her feet to push the pedals. My friend went along for the ride. As I remember it, we drove home after leaving his mom at the doctor's office because she had to be transferred to the hospital by ambulance. I'm not sure what happened, but I heard later that she had to refuse a transfusion and ended up in the hospital for several weeks because she had to be so closely monitored. I heard that she did get extra fluids and "expanders" to help her survive. I lost contact with them because they lived in the Arlington (South Riverside, CA) congregation and we rarely made it over that far. I count her as a survivor, but I'm not sure if she had more problems after that or not.

The last incident that I was aware of took place in the West Hollywood (Fairfax) congregation around 1968. I was not going, but my wife was still a JW at the time. I do not know the details, but I know that a sister who was a part time actress was taken to Cedars-Sinai Hospital in very bad shape. I thnk it was female problems again or maybe a miscarriage - but she too (or her husband) refused blood and died within a day or two. I did not go to the funeral and could not get off work to take my wife - and she barely knew anyone there anyway. But I do remember that the incident caused us to discuss what we would do if she or our baby girls was in a situation where they needed a blood transfusion. Being out by then I made it very clear to her that I would insist on our girls having transfusions, but she could make her own choice. I think my wife was somewhat relieved by my hardline position since it would be me and not her that would be held reponsible and end up dying at Armageddon in 1975.

So that is 5 down and only one survivor in a very small geographic area during just a few years. Some of those persons may have died anyway, but the point of the above discussion has been that "not that many cases could have occured over the past 50 years." 250,000? Maybe not, but I know that there were a lot of stories going around during the years I was a JW or associated that the blood transfusion issue was fairly common. It was a always a discussion during assemblies. As a teenager I often spent many sleepless nights worrying that I might be injured and die before I had a chance to have sex because of the no blood rules. I was lucky then and later in my life when I had open heart surgery that did not require any blood transfusion even though I was OK with having it if needed.

And I just remembered - we had at least 2 young hemophiliacs in our area. I don't know whatever happened to them but their odds were not good.

JV